@Aldo I am messaging you in DM so as not to pollute this post. No problem at all, only that we do not have fixed dates so you will have to follow the chat.
Edit: Misunderstood you, I though you were talking about the structural stuff :)
@Moult said:
This is great! We should integrate this into the "sequence" module of the BlenderBIM Add-on.
Once or twice a week, @Jesusbill and I meet up to develop a bit of structural support together. What do you think of also meeting up once or twice a week to work on 4D?
Most definetly! Shall we set a regular meet-up on Wednesdays 6 to 7 PM Sydney-time?
Once or twice a week, @Jesusbill and I meet up to develop a bit of structural support together. What do you think of also meeting up once or twice a week to work on 4D?
@SigmaDimensions your SVG diagram seems well researched and mostly correct. There are perhaps some minor details that we need to clarify, such as whether both work plans and work schedules need to be declared. It also corresponds with my reading of the spec, as well as corroborates (99%) with the IFC example, and this student's academic paper on page 34.
We should make conservative decisions when translating these schemas into an authoring environment. My experience has shown that just because there seems to be multiple ways to do it doesn't mean they are all equally correct. Most likely, the schema has an intention, and that intention usually has some good thinking behind it - which we should seek out.
There are not that many people who are knowledgeable enough about the spec to clarify sequencing / costing unfortunately. My initial hopes of getting examples from Synchro were dashed when I read that Synchro exports IFCs without any time information. I know @geometrygym has implemented these entities and used the sequencing entities to an extent in Rhino, so I had a little chat with him and we have made a list of questions, which he will do a bit of research to clarify. Here's the list:
What is the difference between an IfcWorkSchedule and an IfcWorkPlan?
When should the IFC root task be assigned to an IfcWorkSchedule and when should it be assigned to an IfcWorkPlan?
When should an IfcWorkSchedule be used standalone, and when should it be included in IfcWorkPlan?
Should IfcEvent / IfcProcedure be used in construction sequencing, and can you give an example that isn't flipping burgers?
The example IFC for construction uses IfcRelNests to include the IfcWorkSchedule in the IfcWorkPlan, should this be IfcRelAggregates?
How is the IfcCostSchedule related back to the project?
Is it valid for an IfcCostSchedule to be (nested / aggregated) in an IfcWorkPlan, and when should you do this?
What are example valid values for the Purpose attribute of IfcWorkControl?
Why is there the same predefined type enum (ACTUAL/PLANNED/BASELINE for both IfcWorkPlan and IfcWorkSchedule?) Are they allowed to conflict?
The IfcWorkSchedule / IfcWorkPlan seems to always be declared back to the IfcProject. What other contexts might it be declared to? Do both need to be declared back, or only one, and the other can be derived?
There are certainly more questions. For example, I'd like to see an example of how events and procedures work from a facility management perspective... but hopefully we'll deal with these as we progress. Pinging @aothms in case he knows some of these answers.
BTW - there may be an unspoken assumption here that we're all dealing with IFC4 and if so let's keep it that way and ignore IFC2X3 for the moment :)
Moving forward, whilst these semantics are being sorted out, we can start migrating code from scripts into operations / usecases / UI for authoring. Looking forward to catching up with everybody 6-7pm today :)
My (unpopular) opinion is that all these things are removed from the standard and we focus on good interoperability with existing (open?) scheduling formats and workflows.
@Moult said: @SigmaDimensions your SVG diagram seems well researched and mostly correct.
I have tried to implement @walpa's graph who has been searching this thouroughly - and we did start to have questions which you are questioning aswell. So I guess we may not have answers with full certainty. I reckon @aothms 's suggestion is safe and sound.
Ensuring we read Scheduling information from other software. This will greatly simplify respecting the IFC Schema, because after parsing two different .xml files, I see that the project mngmt software's data schemas are very light compared to what the IFC Schema can allow.
So reading the IFC4 specifications, and completing with my assumptions, here are my thoughts on your questions 1. What is the difference between an IfcWorkSchedule and an IfcWorkPlan?
A work plan contains a set of work schedules. An IfcWorkSchedule can be either for Design, Procurement, Construction, Facility Management. We also proposed creating new IfcWorkSchedule entities based on an initial WorkSchedule's linked tasks, so as to have otions to add Baselines to the Scheduling Plan.
2. When should the IFC root task be assigned to an IfcWorkSchedule and when should it be assigned to an IfcWorkPlan?
For sequencing: A root IfcTask should only link to the IfcWorkPlan if there is no WorkSchedule. Doesn't mean it should be done since this would give us quite a poor data structure.
3. When should an IfcWorkSchedule be used standalone, and when should it be included in IfcWorkPlan?
Nothing specified - but for the sake of a good structure in our data + the ability to import/export individuals workschedules an IFC model we produce should always have an IfcWorkPlan, hosting at least 1 WorkSchedule.
4. Should IfcEvent / IfcProcedure be used in construction sequencing, and can you give an example that isn't flipping burgers?
I doubt IfcEvent/IfcProcedure is to be used in construction sequencing. The attributes of IfcProcedure suggest it is for things related to equipement. Why did they have to chose a flipping burgers analogy.. why..?
Part 2/2 5. The example IFC for construction uses IfcRelNests to include the IfcWorkSchedule in the IfcWorkPlan, should this be IfcRelAggregates?
In these scenarios, the Schema specifications should take precedence over examples, right? Here's what's stated in the specs - The specs state that "the backbone structure of a work plan that defines (1) contained work schedules through IfcRelAggregates and (2), if not assigned otherwise to contained work schedules, assigned tasks and resources through IfcRelAssignsToControl. "
6. How is the IfcCostSchedule related back to the project?
There are no provisions specified for this in any of the IFC data schema
7. Is it valid for an IfcCostSchedule to be (nested / aggregated) in an IfcWorkPlan, and when should you do this?
Can we do such things whilst it's not specified in the schema yet? This would be the logical way, since IfcWorkSchedules work this way.
8. What are example valid values for the Purpose attribute of IfcWorkControl?
I'd suggest some labeling such as :
for IfcWorkPlan : "To plan for the design and construction", or "To create a construction Simulation"
for IfcWorkSchedule : '' Design planning", "Procurement planning" and "Construction Planning"
Sounds like very valuable purposes to me :D
9. Why is there the same predefined type enum (ACTUAL/PLANNED/BASELINE for both IfcWorkPlan and IfcWorkSchedule?) Are they allowed to conflict?
I think IFC4 Schema messed this up in the specs and this wouldn't arise if we follow point number 3.
10. The IfcWorkSchedule / IfcWorkPlan seems to always be declared back to the IfcProject. What other contexts might it be declared to? Do both need to be declared back, or only one, and the other can be derived?
Why would we want to declare it to something else than a project? Only one relationship is necessary if we repesct item 3.
I agree 'ipsis litteris' with the responses from @SigmaDimensions. Only in item 8 do I think that an enumeration field with options should not be applied (in the documentation it is IfcLabel). For me, this field is just sugar ... it can be used as a filter, but at the user's will.
Post another review of the diagram considering:
better understanding of relationships between IfcTask / IfcResource / IfcCostItem
Hello, I can share a pre-compiled version of CharonIFC and some example outputs. What is the best way to share (e.g. wetransfer)?
P.S. the build is based on an older version of IfcOpenShell, so there is no guarantee, for now, the software works with newer IFC exports. Also A separate installation of Pandoc (https://pandoc.org/), also a GPL-based free software, is required to export to Word, OpenDocument, HTML or latex formats.
Hi @dav80 .
Very happy to see you joining us !! Would love that. Could you maybe include that in your existing repo with bazaar?
( after installing bazaar it was easier to clone your project).
I was going to contact you in order to confirm if we can meet over the next two saturdays - same time as last time at 10 CET? - This would give us the opportunity to : read the code together and start the collaboration.
heya @SigmaDimensions !
glad to join and thank you for the welcome.
@SigmaDimensions said:
Hi @dav80 .
Very happy to see you joining us !! Would love that. Could you maybe include that in your existing repo with bazaar?
( after installing bazaar it was easier to clone your project).
I tried but I haven't found any option to upload a downloadable exe file, on the other side I can set the launchpad permission to anyone interested in the project (even if it's probaly going to move over a different repository/merge with BimAddin repository).
I was going to contact you in order to confirm if we can meet over the next two saturdays - same time as last time at 10 CET? - This would give us the opportunity to : read the code together and start the collaboration.
Yes, we can do that. Please note we recently moved to CEST time so my time zone shifted from UTC+1 to UTC+2. If that's a problem for someone we can try to shift meeting time a bit.
PS I forgot to mention in the meeting a translation service was included in CharonIFC software, based on international localization standard, so while the video showed Italian translation, the UI will fall back to EN language should the user native language not be available.
I tried but I haven't found any option to upload a downloadable exe file, on the other side I can set the launchpad permission to anyone interested in the project (even if it's probaly going to move over a different repository/merge with BimAddin repository).
@dav80, Weetransfer was a good idea after all (or perhaps something that won't expire?) - Maybe someone would want to try it since we also added charonIFC to the AEC Free Software Directory.
I think we'll probably move it to github first, so we can keep an intact version. Then once I can follow your code --> re-create modules to be included in the ifcpythonshell API, so we can re-use the work in different applications: blenderBIM, FreeCAD, a standalone app, etc.
Yes, we can do that. Please note we recently moved to CEST time so my time zone shifted from UTC+1 to UTC+2. If that's a problem for someone we can try to shift meeting time a bit.
I think it's perfect as is. 10 AM UTC+2 - I've confirmed with @Moult who will be joining aswell (and maybe also @Jesusbill). See you then - Thank you
Yes, we can do that. Please note we recently moved to CEST time so my time zone shifted from UTC+1 to UTC+2. If that's a problem for someone we can try to shift meeting time a bit.
I think it's perfect as is. 10 AM UTC+2 - I've confirmed with @Moult who will be joining aswell (and maybe also @Jesusbill). See you then - Thank you
Perfect, see you saturday (let me know the chat room link please, thanks).
@Aldo, @dav80, @iosvarms, @Jesusbill, @Moult, -- Quick one today. If you'd would like to join us next saturday at 9 AM CET,
We will be working on:
adding IFC costing authoring modules to the ifcopnshell python API + add UI in blenderBIM.
review which parts of charonIFC software code will be re-used in automated costing workflows.
We will be posting the link to the meeting room here, and in the chat.
Hey @dav80 - @Jesusbill l and I had a look at how we can integrate charonIFC's library for costing features - at the moment, it will be very hard to transfer the code from charonIFC as we will be focusing on coding the building blocks of costing features with the ifcopenshell.api and blenderBIM modules.
If you'd like to join tomorrow's coding session, feel free to join us - we will post the link to the meet-up in the morning @ 9 AM CET
@SigmaDimensions said:
Hey @dav80 - @Jesusbill l and I had a look at how we can integrate charonIFC's library for costing features - at the moment, it will be very hard to transfer the code from charonIFC as we will be focusing on coding the building blocks of costing features with the ifcopenshell.api and blenderBIM modules.
If you'd like to join tomorrow's coding session, feel free to join us - we will post the link to the meet-up in the morning @ 9 AM CET
hey @SigmaDimensions I agree with you as of now your're working on a core feature and merging the two will be hard to do in a few sessions. I will try to attend to keep in touch with work currently being done on this part, maybe it will give me insight on a couple of ideas to further integrate costing with IFC technologies.
Our last session gave me a couple of ideas that may open a wider discussion on the matter of creating an international standard for price lists and exchanging data beween costing softwares. I think the IFC standard may do the job and become a way to exchange costing data between different softwares (creating it without a geometry) in a free way. We could then create custom scripts to convert price lists to software A to IFC and then import IFC price list in another software or even Blender BIMAddOn (in the future... maybe).
EDIT: Silly me copy/posted the wrong link here, which may have blocked authorization to anyone trying to join... going forward, I'll set the meeting rooms myself so I can distribute the correct link...
Alternatively there's always a link in the Live Chat which is a safer approach
@dav80 said:
Our last session gave me a couple of ideas that may open a wider discussion on the matter of creating an international standard for price lists and exchanging data beween costing softwares. I think the IFC standard may do the job and become a way to exchange costing data between different softwares (creating it without a geometry) in a free way. We could then create custom scripts to convert price lists to software A to IFC and then import IFC price list in another software or even Blender BIMAddOn (in the future... maybe).
There's an indian proveb that goes "From discussion flows light". I'm 100 % with you on this ! I would love to see schedules of rates in IFC, and as you say we can also automate the conversion from external price lists! I was blown away by your demonstration the first day, and I believe all the automated features used in charonIFC can be included with ease.
We'll be meeting same time next week, saturday @9AM CET ! See you then hopefully !
I suggest we suspend the saturday morning meetings for now.
@Moult and I will be rapidly advancing on ifcopenshell.api features to do with Project Costing and Project Sequencing, and also set-out the UI in blenderBIM.
Instead of the saturday meeting: I suggest we organise a work session in two weeks time to review the proposed workflow and get everyone's input and suggestions?
I suggest we suspend the saturday morning meetings for now.
@Moult and I will be rapidly advancing on ifcopenshell.api features to do with Project Costing and Project Sequencing, and also set-out the UI in blenderBIM.
Instead of the saturday meeting: I suggest we organise a work session in two weeks time to review the proposed workflow and get everyone's input and suggestions?
sorry for the late reply, I have seen the post but I could not reply until now. I think it's a good idea, you'll be able to proceed faster that way I guess. In the meanwhile let me know if there are specific inputs or suggestions you expect to receive or you need inputs for (or other useful tasks/things I may not have mentioned).
Comments
@Aldo I am messaging you in DM so as not to pollute this post. No problem at all, only that we do not have fixed dates so you will have to follow the chat.
Edit: Misunderstood you, I though you were talking about the structural stuff :)
Most definetly! Shall we set a regular meet-up on Wednesdays 6 to 7 PM Sydney-time?
The more the merrier :)
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/osarch-org_openbim-ifc-automation-activity-6780067314852208640-U5ej
(that's it folks, off to work)
@SigmaDimensions that sounds good! Let's try that time.
guys, I already have a reasonable knowledge of the ifc standard, and I'm studying blenderbim. In the future, I would be very happy to help with coding
Got this one today from
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eduardo-Isatto
Review in the relationship map, according to the implementation of @SigmaDimensions
@SigmaDimensions your SVG diagram seems well researched and mostly correct. There are perhaps some minor details that we need to clarify, such as whether both work plans and work schedules need to be declared. It also corresponds with my reading of the spec, as well as corroborates (99%) with the IFC example, and this student's academic paper on page 34.
We should make conservative decisions when translating these schemas into an authoring environment. My experience has shown that just because there seems to be multiple ways to do it doesn't mean they are all equally correct. Most likely, the schema has an intention, and that intention usually has some good thinking behind it - which we should seek out.
There are not that many people who are knowledgeable enough about the spec to clarify sequencing / costing unfortunately. My initial hopes of getting examples from Synchro were dashed when I read that Synchro exports IFCs without any time information. I know @geometrygym has implemented these entities and used the sequencing entities to an extent in Rhino, so I had a little chat with him and we have made a list of questions, which he will do a bit of research to clarify. Here's the list:
There are certainly more questions. For example, I'd like to see an example of how events and procedures work from a facility management perspective... but hopefully we'll deal with these as we progress. Pinging @aothms in case he knows some of these answers.
BTW - there may be an unspoken assumption here that we're all dealing with IFC4 and if so let's keep it that way and ignore IFC2X3 for the moment :)
Moving forward, whilst these semantics are being sorted out, we can start migrating code from scripts into operations / usecases / UI for authoring. Looking forward to catching up with everybody 6-7pm today :)
@Moult no clue, sorry.
My (unpopular) opinion is that all these things are removed from the standard and we focus on good interoperability with existing (open?) scheduling formats and workflows.
Part 1/2
I have tried to implement @walpa's graph who has been searching this thouroughly - and we did start to have questions which you are questioning aswell. So I guess we may not have answers with full certainty. I reckon @aothms 's suggestion is safe and sound.
Ensuring we read Scheduling information from other software. This will greatly simplify respecting the IFC Schema, because after parsing two different .xml files, I see that the project mngmt software's data schemas are very light compared to what the IFC Schema can allow.
So reading the IFC4 specifications, and completing with my assumptions, here are my thoughts on your questions
1. What is the difference between an IfcWorkSchedule and an IfcWorkPlan?
A work plan contains a set of work schedules. An IfcWorkSchedule can be either for Design, Procurement, Construction, Facility Management. We also proposed creating new IfcWorkSchedule entities based on an initial WorkSchedule's linked tasks, so as to have otions to add Baselines to the Scheduling Plan.
2. When should the IFC root task be assigned to an IfcWorkSchedule and when should it be assigned to an IfcWorkPlan?
For sequencing: A root IfcTask should only link to the IfcWorkPlan if there is no WorkSchedule. Doesn't mean it should be done since this would give us quite a poor data structure.
3. When should an IfcWorkSchedule be used standalone, and when should it be included in IfcWorkPlan?
Nothing specified - but for the sake of a good structure in our data + the ability to import/export individuals workschedules an IFC model we produce should always have an IfcWorkPlan, hosting at least 1 WorkSchedule.
4. Should IfcEvent / IfcProcedure be used in construction sequencing, and can you give an example that isn't flipping burgers?
I doubt IfcEvent/IfcProcedure is to be used in construction sequencing. The attributes of IfcProcedure suggest it is for things related to equipement. Why did they have to chose a flipping burgers analogy.. why..?
Part 2/2
5. The example IFC for construction uses IfcRelNests to include the IfcWorkSchedule in the IfcWorkPlan, should this be IfcRelAggregates?
In these scenarios, the Schema specifications should take precedence over examples, right? Here's what's stated in the specs - The specs state that "the backbone structure of a work plan that defines (1) contained work schedules through IfcRelAggregates and (2), if not assigned otherwise to contained work schedules, assigned tasks and resources through IfcRelAssignsToControl. "
6. How is the IfcCostSchedule related back to the project?
There are no provisions specified for this in any of the IFC data schema
7. Is it valid for an IfcCostSchedule to be (nested / aggregated) in an IfcWorkPlan, and when should you do this?
Can we do such things whilst it's not specified in the schema yet? This would be the logical way, since IfcWorkSchedules work this way.
8. What are example valid values for the Purpose attribute of IfcWorkControl?
I'd suggest some labeling such as :
IfcWorkPlan: "To plan for the design and construction", or "To create a construction Simulation"IfcWorkSchedule: '' Design planning", "Procurement planning" and "Construction Planning"Sounds like very valuable purposes to me :D
9. Why is there the same predefined type enum (ACTUAL/PLANNED/BASELINE for both IfcWorkPlan and IfcWorkSchedule?) Are they allowed to conflict?
I think IFC4 Schema messed this up in the specs and this wouldn't arise if we follow point number 3.
10. The IfcWorkSchedule / IfcWorkPlan seems to always be declared back to the IfcProject. What other contexts might it be declared to? Do both need to be declared back, or only one, and the other can be derived?
Why would we want to declare it to something else than a project? Only one relationship is necessary if we repesct item 3.
I agree 'ipsis litteris' with the responses from @SigmaDimensions. Only in item 8 do I think that an enumeration field with options should not be applied (in the documentation it is IfcLabel). For me, this field is just sugar ... it can be used as a filter, but at the user's will.
Post another review of the diagram considering:
I would like you to take a look at the red observations.
Cheers
@SigmaDimensions My two cents for IfcTaskTime, for inspiration maybe.
Hi everyone. The chat on Charonifc is tomorrow by 10am CET. It will be very good and productive if we can join and see how we can collaborate with Dave towards implementing 5D-BIM in BlenderBim. The link for the chat is at https://meet.jit.si/openbim . A shout out to @walpa @Aldo @SigmaDimensions @Dav_id @Goro @tlang @Jesusbill @Moult @duncan @JanF @carlopav @CadGiru @jtm2020hyo @brunopostle and everyone interested in 5D-BIM . See you all tomorrow.
I'm sorry, I was late. It was recorded?
@walpa tomorrow Saturday, it will be held in little more than 10 hours. You are still in time :)
Link to the recorded meeting with Davide this morning.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/33dju5a0e0lfjd9/charonIFC discussion on 2021-03-27 11-05.mp4?dl=0
Hello, I can share a pre-compiled version of CharonIFC and some example outputs. What is the best way to share (e.g. wetransfer)?
P.S. the build is based on an older version of IfcOpenShell, so there is no guarantee, for now, the software works with newer IFC exports. Also A separate installation of Pandoc (https://pandoc.org/), also a GPL-based free software, is required to export to Word, OpenDocument, HTML or latex formats.
Hi @dav80 .
Very happy to see you joining us !! Would love that. Could you maybe include that in your existing repo with bazaar?
( after installing bazaar it was easier to clone your project).
I was going to contact you in order to confirm if we can meet over the next two saturdays - same time as last time at 10 CET? - This would give us the opportunity to : read the code together and start the collaboration.
heya @SigmaDimensions !
glad to join and thank you for the welcome.
I tried but I haven't found any option to upload a downloadable exe file, on the other side I can set the launchpad permission to anyone interested in the project (even if it's probaly going to move over a different repository/merge with BimAddin repository).
Yes, we can do that. Please note we recently moved to CEST time so my time zone shifted from UTC+1 to UTC+2. If that's a problem for someone we can try to shift meeting time a bit.
PS I forgot to mention in the meeting a translation service was included in CharonIFC software, based on international localization standard, so while the video showed Italian translation, the UI will fall back to EN language should the user native language not be available.
@dav80, Weetransfer was a good idea after all (or perhaps something that won't expire?) - Maybe someone would want to try it since we also added charonIFC to the AEC Free Software Directory.
I think we'll probably move it to github first, so we can keep an intact version. Then once I can follow your code --> re-create modules to be included in the ifcpythonshell API, so we can re-use the work in different applications: blenderBIM, FreeCAD, a standalone app, etc.
I think it's perfect as is. 10 AM UTC+2 - I've confirmed with @Moult who will be joining aswell (and maybe also @Jesusbill). See you then - Thank you
Perfect, see you saturday (let me know the chat room link please, thanks).
@dav80, here's the link to the chat room: https://meet.jit.si/openbim
@Aldo, @dav80, @iosvarms, @Jesusbill, @Moult, -- Quick one today. If you'd would like to join us next saturday at 9 AM CET,
We will be working on:
We will be posting the link to the meeting room here, and in the chat.
Hey @dav80 - @Jesusbill l and I had a look at how we can integrate charonIFC's library for costing features - at the moment, it will be very hard to transfer the code from charonIFC as we will be focusing on coding the building blocks of costing features with the ifcopenshell.api and blenderBIM modules.
If you'd like to join tomorrow's coding session, feel free to join us - we will post the link to the meet-up in the morning @ 9 AM CET
hey @SigmaDimensions I agree with you as of now your're working on a core feature and merging the two will be hard to do in a few sessions. I will try to attend to keep in touch with work currently being done on this part, maybe it will give me insight on a couple of ideas to further integrate costing with IFC technologies.
Our last session gave me a couple of ideas that may open a wider discussion on the matter of creating an international standard for price lists and exchanging data beween costing softwares. I think the IFC standard may do the job and become a way to exchange costing data between different softwares (creating it without a geometry) in a free way. We could then create custom scripts to convert price lists to software A to IFC and then import IFC price list in another software or even Blender BIMAddOn (in the future... maybe).
https://bigbluebutton.webhostingzone.org/html5client/join?sessionToken=hdk7eedvruq9yx3c
EDIT: Silly me copy/posted the wrong link here, which may have blocked authorization to anyone trying to join... going forward, I'll set the meeting rooms myself so I can distribute the correct link...
Alternatively there's always a link in the Live Chat which is a safer approach
There's an indian proveb that goes "From discussion flows light". I'm 100 % with you on this ! I would love to see schedules of rates in IFC, and as you say we can also automate the conversion from external price lists! I was blown away by your demonstration the first day, and I believe all the automated features used in charonIFC can be included with ease.
We'll be meeting same time next week, saturday @9AM CET ! See you then hopefully !
@iosvarms, @dav80 ,@Jesusbill , @Moult, @Aldo @walpa
sorry for the late reply, I have seen the post but I could not reply until now. I think it's a good idea, you'll be able to proceed faster that way I guess. In the meanwhile let me know if there are specific inputs or suggestions you expect to receive or you need inputs for (or other useful tasks/things I may not have mentioned).