OSArch Chatroom and Freenode changes

MoultMoult
edited May 2021 in General

Some of you have seen this already, but here is a summary from the Gentoo Linux community: https://www.gentoo.org/news/2021/05/20/Freenode.html

Edit: Gentoo has decided to move

So we need to make a choice - stay with Freenode? Move networks? Change protocols? Etc. Thoughts?

Comments

  • MoultMoult
    edited May 2021

    Just in case of channel squatters, I have registered channels ##architect and #osarch on liberachat.

    Also ping @yorik - FreeCAD Gitter bot is also currently forwarding to Freenode, which may need to be reconsidered.

    duncan
  • duncanduncan

    Keep IRC for as long as it is our only channel that doesn't require authentication. It's important people can just drop in with a question without having to understand Matrix/whatever or register. I am not informed enough to have an opinion about the switch so I would just go with the flow of other projects and developers.

  • theoryshawtheoryshaw
    edited May 2021

    My vote is for Matrix only. :)

    • You can search past conversations.
    • You can thread conversations
    • Link to specific conversations (nice, to bring in others, via other social channels)
    • Easier to upload images and files (drag and drop)
    • Use Markdown
    • You can re-edit your posts, for misspellings, etc.
    • can message people on private channels
    • It's open source as well
    • people, especially newbies, are pinged when someone leaves them a message. That is, it's not lost in the IRC nebula, after they close their IRC channel.
    • And don't forget the emojis. :)
      Peace.
    roK
  • theoryshawtheoryshaw

    ...or, if both, would vote for having Matrix being the 'front door' for members instead of the IRC channel. I think we loose a lot of potential engagement when they drop in on the IRC channel, as it looks empty (past conversations are not visible) and they are not pinged, if someone answers them, after they close their session.

    duncan
  • roKroK

    [matrix] is my choice, too, as primary/only communication platform

  • MoultMoult

    I'm OK to go either way. One option is to have the "Chatroom" link go to a landing page, where a user is presented with two choices, IRC or Matrix highlighting the differences between them. Does Matrix not allow guests?

  • CyrilCyril

    @Moult said:
    I'm OK to go either way. One option is to have the "Chatroom" link go to a landing page, where a user is presented with two choices, IRC or Matrix highlighting the differences between them. Does Matrix not allow guests?

    In channel parameter you can allow guest to see history but I found no way to allow guest to write something like on IRC.
    A comparison with other protocol is available in matrix FAQs.

  • duncanduncan

    @Moult @Cyril @theoryshaw my main reason for supporting IRC is that I see no disadvantage if someone likes using it. That's the whole point of open protocols - you choose the tool you like. The other reason is being able to comment without registering. That looks like it should be possible:

    How can I invite a contact to use Element?
    You can invite a contact by email or by sending them a link to a room: by clicking on the link they will be able to join without even registering, if the room allows it.

    https://element.io/help
    I think I found the setting in our test room (sorry, in danish)

    Try joining this room without being logged in: https://app.element.io/#/room/#OSArch-test:matrix.org I can't get it to work.

  • jchkochjchkoch

    100% agree thar IRC should continue to be supported.

    @duncan said:
    @Moult @Cyril @theoryshaw my main reason for supporting IRC is that I see no disadvantage if someone likes using it. That's the whole point of open protocols - you choose the tool you like.

  • MoultMoult

    Given the opinions expressed here, can I propose:

    1. Support both IRC and Matrix.
    2. Create a minimal "splash screen" landing page for the OSArch Chatroom, which all it does is provide a very concise choice between Matrix/IRC. This can help address the engagement issues @theoryshaw mentions.
    3. The Matrix channel must be configured to allow guests to read past conversations. Ideally, we find a solution to let guests post as well, but if not, it's still OK, since with support IRC.
    4. We migrate from Freenode to LiberaChat. (Nobody has expressed preference for staying, and @duncan recommends going with the flow)

    We need to still decide:

    1. Do we keep the channel name as ##architect or change to #osarch? I vote for changing to #osarch. Might as well whilst we're moving.
    2. Is it an IRC channel with a Matrix bridge, or a Matrix room with an IRC bridge? What are the pros and cons of either?
  • duncanduncan
    edited May 2021

    @Moult said:
    2. Is it an IRC channel with a Matrix bridge,

    This is what we have now.

    or a Matrix room with an IRC bridge? What are the pros and cons of either?

    This is the intention with the new room, but I haven't yet seen how to set it up. Anyone want to try? @tetov was this something you started looking into?
    I need to hear some testing of an anonymous connection to https://app.element.io/#/room/#OSArch-test:matrix.org - does it work?

  • tetovtetov

    We currently have a portal room. appservice-matrix-irc running on matrix.org is providing Matrix users the possibility of joining an IRC room as if it were a Matrix room.

    A plumbed room is a matrix room on any homeserver where appservice-matrix-irc provides a bridge to an IRC room.

    In either case there’s a bridge (appservice-matrix-irc is the proven solution) impersonating users on one side to send messages between the services.

    In a plumbed room the homeserver (e.g. matrix.org) handles logging and I think the history is replicated to a federated homeserver if a user from there joins. The history should in theory have the same lifespan as the room.

    A plumbed room is matrix first so could be bridged to other services or networks. There’s no technical obstacle to bridging both freenode and liberachat (or a Slack workspace for example).

    I should note that the Freenode and Matrix.org have/had a special relationship. There’s been some consternation from Freenode’s side over Matrix.org deciding to bridge every room on the whole server. It seems to me that that was resolved through changes to make the bridge a better Feeenode citizen. I haven’t looked into what the plans and attitudes are around LiberaChat.

  • tetovtetov
    edited May 2021

    I’d happy to help set up the matrix room and bridge/bridges.

    It’s not very well documented how to ”plumb” but this seems to be it:

    A plumbed room (also known as provisioning). A Matrix user may create a room ahead of time for their community and later on decide to "plumb in" IRC users to that room. They can do this via an interative UI in Element, via the !plumb command or even via a HTTP endpoint. If done interatively, the bridge has a verification process to ensure the user on the Matrix side has the blessing of the IRC ops first. However, it's possible for the IRC bot to lack kick abilities in the room so kicks and bans may not be bridged both ways.

    From https://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-appservice-irc/latest/irc_operators.html#portals-and-plumbed

  • duncanduncan

    @tetov I've made you an admin of https://app.element.io/#/room/#OSArch-test:matrix.org where you could try and plumb IRC in.

  • MoultMoult

    https://www.gentoo.org/news/2021/05/26/gentoo-freenode-channels-hijacked.html time to jump ship!

    duncan
  • tetovtetov

    @Moult Me and @duncan hoped to have moved the alias #OSArch:matrix.org to the new channel but we’ve had some trouble with that. The current room alias is #osarch:matrix.org.

    I’ll connect them today whenever I get back to my PC. @Moult: You (as op of #osarch on libera.chat) will have to confirm in a DM from a bot.

    Moult
  • tetovtetov

    Everything is now set up for a move to Libera.Chat including a new Matrix room.

    IRC channel: #OSArch on irc.libera.chat IRC link
    Matrix room: #OSArch on matrix.org

    There’s a new page with links to IRC & Matrix as well as an embedded web IRC client at osarch.org/chat.

    Hope to see you in #OSArch soon!

    jchkochbitacovirduncanMoulthtlcnnCadGiru
  • theoryshawtheoryshaw

    nice work on the chat room.
    Possible for members to invite others to chat room?...

  • tetovtetov

    @theoryshaw said:
    nice work on the chat room.
    Possible for members to invite others to chat room?...

    I changed "who's allowed to invite" from mod to user, it should work for you now.

    theoryshawMoult
  • MoultMoult

    Just sent in project registration details to libera. Here's what I sent:

    # About your community
Your community name(s): OSArch
Your community description: OSArch is a community to promote open-source software in the AEC industry
Can we list your community publicly, such as on the libera.chat website: Yes :)
Libera Chat staff member you have discussed this registration with: @li

# About you and your staff
Your NickServ account: Moult
Your relationship / affiliation with the community: One of the founders
NickServ of group contacts and if they're primary/secondary, hidden/public: Other community admins include duncan-nz[m] (not sure how it works via matrix bridge), and tetov

# Channels and cloaks (see below)
Channels you'd like to claim: #osarch and #osarch-*
(typically #communityname and #communityname-*)
Would you like ONLY group contacts to be able to register these channels with
ChanServ?: Yes
(The cloaks will be formatted like this:
about/YourCommunityNameHere/accountname)
    tetovduncan
  • MoultMoult

    No reply yet, so I've just pinged the operators again :)

  • MoultMoult

    Great news! We are now registered as a project (not a community) in Libera!

    I was confused about the definition of project and community, but we are classified as a project. The distinction is:

    • project: can be and is officially represented (think e.g. Wikimedia is actually the people running #wikipedia, Canonical has appointed people for #ubuntu )
    • community: either can't be or isn't officially represented (think e.g. #music or #linux)

    Here's the response email! So if anybody wants a cloak, we can have them! If you want osarch/benevolentdictator/foo, now is the time to claim it :D

    For anyone on Matrix there are specific instructions of how to register with Libera if you want to.

    Hello Dion,

    thank you very much for getting in touch with us and for the quick chat on IRC.
    As discussed, we have now registered you as a project, OSArch

    This means you could now claim channels in your namespace, #OSArch and #OSArch-*. For channels which don't yet exist, you should be able to do so yourself, else feel free to contact staff. You can also claim channels in your namespace using /msg ChanServ CLAIM #channel

    As for cloaks: you can now optionally request cloaks for your team (or your users, or whoever you see fit) They have the format

    projectname/optional/mandatory, thus e.g. OSArch/member/john or OSArch/jane. Please note that only valid DNS characters are allowed (e.g. no underscores) for technical reasons and recipients need a registered account.

    I added tetov and you he Group Contacts (people who can claim channels and request cloaks for your group) for now.
    Your colleague on Matrix would have to register a nickserv account on Libera and be identified to it, which is possible through Matrix: https://matrix-org.github.io/matrix-appservice-irc/latest/usage.html#authentication
    If you would like to add other group contacts later, please tell us their nickname accounts via e- mail (that's one of the few things that require an e-mail). Channel Ops you can manage by yourself with the flags command (/msg chanserv help flags) The group contacts should be able to (optionally) join #libera-communities, a channel made specifically for GCs and staff communication.

    Feel free to forward this e-mail to your colleagues, too.

    Of course you can always drop by in #libera or contact staff directly for assistance.

    Kind regards,

    Christian (Fuchs on Libera)

    Jesusbillbitacovirtetov
  • duncanduncan

    Here's the response email! So if anybody wants a cloak, we can have them! If you want osarch/benevolentdictator/foo, now is the time to claim it :D

    Nice

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