@Bernd: The SCIA AutoConverter is not only converting a structural model (model with all load bearing objects) it is also covering the changes. If the structural model has changed we will track those changes and update the existing analysis model. meaning all input like loads and boundaries are kept. Also when analysis model has been adapted we will create tasks (BCF way of working) for the modeler to be able to update his model. This part is manual but tracked via the issue management of the solution.
@Jesusbill said: @JanF keep in mind that an Architect cannot prepare the analytical model that the Engineer will use because there are many assumptions and modelling choices to be made that can also vary even between engineers; there is not a unique truth in the model representation. Unless the Engineer in communication with the Architect has set his rules of representation and there is a predefined modelling path.
Regarding export from structural software, some of them do have it but it is usually the 3D equivalent of an analytical model, so not a correct 3D model as you would expect. For example, the columns penetrate in the slabs until the mid-plane, beams are connected in their centers and maybe also some eccentricities may be lost, for example two external structural walls of different thickness will have the same mid-plane representation in the structural analysis model which result in a 3D representation that is not aligned with respect to the external surface as one would expect.
Code_Aster is just a structural solver, it has no knowledge of IFC, such an export should be developed in a software that is used to create the model, like Salome, or directly in IFC authoring tools like BlenderBIM and FreeCAD
@Herman said: @Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
Thanks Herman.
Just for the record, I was asking about its "openess" (that's the essential activity of this group) not about the cost. For example OpenProject is open source but it is not free.
@Herman said: @Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
Thanks Herman.
Just for the record, I was asking about its "openess" (that's the alma mater of this group) not about the cost. For example OpenProject is open source but it is not free.
Yes I understand. Sorry for confusing. The SCIA AutoConverter is not Open source. Concerning SAF We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
Great news! Looking forward to testing that toolkit. Have you chosen the language/languages you'll use?
@Herman said:
We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
Great news! Looking forward to testing that toolkit. Have you chosen the language/languages you'll use?
@Herman would it be possible to consider providing support for Python? C# is highly Windows-centric, even though in theory it is cross platform. This can make it very difficult to integrate cross-platform, and can cut out many of the users here on OSArch.
@Herman same as moult from my side. C# might be a good choice for windows, but in the open source world lots of people work with Linux and C# and Linux are far away from being good friends. Python would be awesome.
In the regard of FreeCAD and structural analysis of BIM models. The FEM module is able to do solid and face analysis. But there are no converters to get a axis model out of a geometric 3D model. This has to be done manually. What works quite well is directly mesh the solid structure and analyze this. But this is not yet common workflow in concrete analysis. BTW it is possible get the reinforcement ratio for such a solid analysis. Cool for analysis of huge structures like foundations or pile heads. AFAIK in code aster this is only possible for face analysis.
The model updating stuff sounds very interesting, but in this regard lots of vendors have promised a lot but Noone ever has brought a practical solution...
@Herman your marketing guys do a great job. ... I had a conversation with an architect we work together with. He said: "Bernd there is some brand new cool format. As a BIM guy for sure you have heard of it. If I export these saf from my ArchiCAD you just need to import in your analysis tool and you are done!"
@bernd said: @Herman your marketing guys do a great job. ... I had a conversation with an architect we work together with. He said: "Bernd there is some brand new cool format. As a BIM guy for sure you have heard of it. If I export these saf from my ArchiCAD you just need to import in your analysis tool and you are done!"
Great to hear that Bernd. As discussed previously in this chat also have a look at The SCIA AutoConverter. It is transforming any BIM model from any BIM tool into a structural analysis model that can be transferred via SAF to all analysis software supporting this format like SCIA Engineer.
@Herman
The free viewer for SAF https://autoconverter.structuraltoolkit.com/en-GB/saf-viewer looks like Allplan BIMPlus plattform. It seams to be based on the same tools. Does it mean BIMPlus can read SAF too? Would be cool because one could overlay it with the BIM-modell than.
The coordination is currently managed by SCIA. If you are interested in joining, please contact Herman Oogink, Head of Strategic Alliances at SCIA. Email: h.oogink@scia.net.
BTW: thanks for joining the disscussion and give us some information.
@Herman
how about solid analysis? One of the big disatatvantages of IFC structural analysis view is there are only face and line elements. Does SAF supports solid analysis meshes? Loads and constraints on solid geometry?
Some software vendors in structural engineering started to support solid analyisis too. Do not know about SCIA? Solid analysis has some great advantages because it is much simpler to mesh 3D solid geometry directly.
Yes the application is build on top of the Bimplus platform, and it is now the only collaboration platform also supporting the analysis model. In our AutoConverter we can see all models together. Having the physical model transparent and the analysis model together.
@bernd said: @Herman
how about solid analysis? One of the big disatatvantages of IFC structural analysis view is there are only face and line elements. Does SAF supports solid analysis meshes? Loads and constraints on solid geometry?
Some software vendors in structural engineering started to support solid analyisis too. Do not know about SCIA? Solid analysis has some great advantages because it is much simpler to mesh 3D solid geometry directly.
Concerning solids we didn't focused on it for now. As in our domain, structural analysis, it is not used that common. It is used normally in mechanical analysis but in our domain we have to follow the codes like Eurocode or IBC etc. and they all are based on 1D and 2D members. But indeed in some case it is useful so we have to look at it for sure in the near future.
The coordination is currently managed by SCIA. If you are interested in joining, please contact Herman Oogink, Head of Strategic Alliances at SCIA. Email: h.oogink@scia.net.
BTW: thanks for joining the disscussion and give us some information.
Yes ... so not anonymous anymore ;) But indeed I am Herman Oogink
Yes the application is build on top of the Bimplus platform, and it is now the only collaboration platform also supporting the analysis model. In our AutoConverter we can see all models together. Having the physical model transparent and the analysis model together.
Will BIM+ support it too?
How about results? Does SAF support results too? If yes, does the viewer displaying results? Nice ideas come in my mind ...
Yes the application is build on top of the Bimplus platform, and it is now the only collaboration platform also supporting the analysis model. In our AutoConverter we can see all models together. Having the physical model transparent and the analysis model together.
Will BIM+ support it too?
How about results? Does SAF support results too? If yes, does the viewer displaying results? Nice ideas come in my mind ...
In Bimplus you can also see the analysis model in combination with all other models you upload.
Yes results are uploaded for 1D members but currently only when directly uploaded from SCIA Engineer. We can visualize the results in the SCIA AutoConverter. We have it also in SAF (for 1D members ) but not yet documented..so a bit hidden feature. . The BIMPLUS viewer is only showing geometry and loads no results. For that the SCIA AutoConverter is used.
It would be good to have a page about the different BIM collaboration SAAS offerings and how well they support openBIM. If that makes sense to you @Herman or someone with knowledge go for it! https://wiki.osarch.org
Comments
@Luis: yes SAF is free to use but for SCIA AutoConverter you need a license indeed. It is a web application that is not for free.
@Bernd: The SCIA AutoConverter is not only converting a structural model (model with all load bearing objects) it is also covering the changes. If the structural model has changed we will track those changes and update the existing analysis model. meaning all input like loads and boundaries are kept. Also when analysis model has been adapted we will create tasks (BCF way of working) for the modeler to be able to update his model. This part is manual but tracked via the issue management of the solution.
Thanks Herman.
Just for the record, I was asking about its "openess" (that's the essential activity of this group) not about the cost. For example OpenProject is open source but it is not free.
@Herman if you are interested in reading about what we mean by open, and what licenses are defined as being open, you can read this section of the wiki: https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=Open-Source_Architecture_Community#The_reason_OSArch_exists
Yes I understand. Sorry for confusing. The SCIA AutoConverter is not Open source. Concerning SAF We are looking at SAF connectors to make that really open source.
I think that's a great idea. The excel format is a bit human-first. If you also provide API's to read/write. You'll cater to developers and likely get quicker adoption.
We are working on a kind of SAF Toolkit that will be open source and will make the implementation of SAF much easier. It is a bit similar as the IFC Toolkits you can buy. You just defien the object and the attributes and the whole formatting will be done automatically.
We also will put all on Github.
Great news! Looking forward to testing that toolkit. Have you chosen the language/languages you'll use?
C#
@Herman would it be possible to consider providing support for Python? C# is highly Windows-centric, even though in theory it is cross platform. This can make it very difficult to integrate cross-platform, and can cut out many of the users here on OSArch.
@Jesusbill could you or anyone please write a bit about SAF / SAV for the wiki with some links? I can't find much online. Maybe the first page is just a quick mention here: https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=AEC_Open_Data_Standards_Directory
@Herman same as moult from my side. C# might be a good choice for windows, but in the open source world lots of people work with Linux and C# and Linux are far away from being good friends. Python would be awesome.
In the regard of FreeCAD and structural analysis of BIM models. The FEM module is able to do solid and face analysis. But there are no converters to get a axis model out of a geometric 3D model. This has to be done manually. What works quite well is directly mesh the solid structure and analyze this. But this is not yet common workflow in concrete analysis. BTW it is possible get the reinforcement ratio for such a solid analysis. Cool for analysis of huge structures like foundations or pile heads. AFAIK in code aster this is only possible for face analysis.
The model updating stuff sounds very interesting, but in this regard lots of vendors have promised a lot but Noone ever has brought a practical solution...
@Herman your marketing guys do a great job. ... I had a conversation with an architect we work together with. He said: "Bernd there is some brand new cool format. As a BIM guy for sure you have heard of it. If I export these saf from my ArchiCAD you just need to import in your analysis tool and you are done!"
No comment on this one ...
Great to hear that Bernd. As discussed previously in this chat also have a look at The SCIA AutoConverter. It is transforming any BIM model from any BIM tool into a structural analysis model that can be transferred via SAF to all analysis software supporting this format like SCIA Engineer.
I've created a page for documenting and/or linking to this work https://wiki.osarch.org/index.php?title=Structural_Analysis_Format_(SAF)
@duncan looks great I will add more content when I find the time , I created a page for Salome_Meca and will do one for ifc2ca as well.
@Herman
The free viewer for SAF https://autoconverter.structuraltoolkit.com/en-GB/saf-viewer looks like Allplan BIMPlus plattform. It seams to be based on the same tools. Does it mean BIMPlus can read SAF too? Would be cool because one could overlay it with the BIM-modell than.
cheers Bernd
@Herman
Is that you?
BTW: thanks for joining the disscussion and give us some information.
@Herman
Are there examples files around?
@Herman
how about solid analysis? One of the big disatatvantages of IFC structural analysis view is there are only face and line elements. Does SAF supports solid analysis meshes? Loads and constraints on solid geometry?
Some software vendors in structural engineering started to support solid analyisis too. Do not know about SCIA? Solid analysis has some great advantages because it is much simpler to mesh 3D solid geometry directly.
Yes the application is build on top of the Bimplus platform, and it is now the only collaboration platform also supporting the analysis model. In our AutoConverter we can see all models together. Having the physical model transparent and the analysis model together.
Concerning solids we didn't focused on it for now. As in our domain, structural analysis, it is not used that common. It is used normally in mechanical analysis but in our domain we have to follow the codes like Eurocode or IBC etc. and they all are based on 1D and 2D members. But indeed in some case it is useful so we have to look at it for sure in the near future.
Yes ... so not anonymous anymore ;) But indeed I am Herman Oogink
Will BIM+ support it too?
How about results? Does SAF support results too? If yes, does the viewer displaying results? Nice ideas come in my mind ...
In Bimplus you can also see the analysis model in combination with all other models you upload.
Yes results are uploaded for 1D members but currently only when directly uploaded from SCIA Engineer. We can visualize the results in the SCIA AutoConverter. We have it also in SAF (for 1D members ) but not yet documented..so a bit hidden feature. . The BIMPLUS viewer is only showing geometry and loads no results. For that the SCIA AutoConverter is used.
It would be good to have a page about the different BIM collaboration SAAS offerings and how well they support openBIM. If that makes sense to you @Herman or someone with knowledge go for it! https://wiki.osarch.org
Where we can get SAF example files as in https://saf.guide/ cannot be donwloaded?